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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 15 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1501<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Exploding suppressors...<BR>
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Mantras<BR>
Re: Paintball and morality<BR>
Re: Gun Control<BR>
Re: Velocity/Vector<BR>
Re: Wearable Lawyers (was Re: Deserts)<BR>
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Mantras<BR>
Re: Just testing...<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1500<BR>
Re: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
Marines & Cutlasses<BR>
Re: They're coming! (again)<BR>
Many threads, pick from: RASN, Imp control, tech advances, on -topic violence thread<BR>
the light hand of the Imperium (was Re: US Constitution [OT])<BR>
Hack, Cough, Die and Imp Intelligence.<BR>
RE: Gun Control<BR>
Re: Paintball is not a real gun, much less a light crew served weapon<BR>
Re: Velocity/Vector<BR>
Re: Hack, Cough, Die and Imp Intelligence.<BR>
[none]<BR>
Re: independent Terran invention of jump drive? sure<BR>
Re: technology advances<BR>
Mailing Info<BR>
Re: Full auto Pilgramage Pics...and DITZIE?!?!<BR>
Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:33:26 GMT<BR>
From: "i Steve" <isteve1967@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Exploding suppressors...<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav: Characters with minimal firearms training do something in a<BR>
>similarly dumb vein.. like trying to load a .45 rifle with 9mm.  :P<BR>
<BR>
Worth a read of Iain M Banks' "Consider Phlebas" where an equivalent of HEAP <BR>
rounds were exploding when they hit the shock wave from the round before, <BR>
right back to the firer resulting in a "barrelcrash..."<BR>
A good deterrant for explosive rounds fired FA, I would have thought...<BR>
<BR>
iSteve<BR>
<BR>
end<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:37:37 +1100<BR>
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au><BR>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Mantras<BR>
<BR>
"If it moves, salute it.<BR>
If it doesn't move, fix it.<BR>
If it can not be fixed, paint it.<BR>
If it can not be painted, polish it.<BR>
If it can not be polished, through it overboard, it's no good."<BR>
<BR>
This keeps the promotions going in the ranks becouse of all the Chiefs and<BR>
Petty Officers going over the side.<BR>
Wayne<BR>
<BR>
The Roadies Mantra;<BR>
<BR>
"If it's alcohol, drink it"<BR>
"If it's green, smoke it"<BR>
"If it moves, gaff it"<BR>
<BR>
- -	Michael<BR>
<BR>
OB Traveller; Would Belters or have something similar?<BR>
<BR>
"If it's stony, extract it"<BR>
"If it's ice, melt it"<BR>
"If it's carbon, curse it"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:43:10 GMT<BR>
From: "i Steve" <isteve1967@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Paintball and morality<BR>
<BR>
>>ObTrav: Different law levels can mean wide differences in cultures, >>and <BR>
>>attitudes about other cultures.  Those who live in low law<BR>
>>level environments might find higher law levels distasteful or even<BR>
>>threatening.<BR>
<BR>
>  Or vice versa :><BR>
<BR>
Very good point actually.  As a Brit whose travelled abroad, I was a little <BR>
twitchy to see cops in the States with handguns on open display, and <BR>
seriously freaked in Paris to see French cops carrying SMGs.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  civilian characters from high Law Level worlds would probably be <BR>
more than a little nervous whilst wandering about on some of those low Law <BR>
Level frontier planets.  A possible roleplaying hook for PCs/NPCs?<BR>
<BR>
iSteve<BR>
<BR>
end<BR>
<BR>
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Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:46:41 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Control<BR>
<BR>
: RE: Gun Control<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Can we please avoid the gun control topic?  There are extremely divided<BR>
>views on the subject here on the TML, as out there in the real world.<BR>
>Can't we all just get along?  :)<BR>
><BR>
>Peez<BR>
<BR>
    Well, it's just raged across the Space 1889 list and it seems a fixture<BR>
of the various Twilight 2000 lists. I got out of the Cyberpunk list because<BR>
it wouldn't go away, I'm on about ten lists and I'm surprised if I don't get<BR>
a gun controll post at least once a week. If not fifty. I feel sorry for the<BR>
people who get digests, they can't delete OT posts. On the other hand, I'm a<BR>
gun freak  : )<BR>
    Jim L.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:58:28 +0000<BR>
From: Andy Gibson <Andy@yarm.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Velocity/Vector<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> wrote:<BR>
>Well, I'm making the (reasonable, in my opinion) assumption that you<BR>
>"aim" your jump for a specific *location*. That is, you in effect tell<BR>
>the computer, we want to go *this* distance, in *that* direction. And<BR>
>if you don't misjump, you exit jump at the target point plus/minus a<BR>
>bit for uncontrollable "random" factors.<BR>
><BR>
>This fits in fairly well with Mark Miller's statements that if your<BR>
>jump "line" intersects the 100 diameter limit of anything between your<BR>
>entry to jump and your planned exit, you pop out of jump there. <BR>
><BR>
>He hasn't answered my question about *when* you pop out of jump. You<BR>
>see, if you work it out, there could be a planet in the way for only a<BR>
>few hours. So it matters if those few hours occur when the ship is in<BR>
>that part of the jump. <BR>
><BR>
'Scuse my de-lurkng for a moment, but has any discussion here covered<BR>
the concept of a "ballistic arc" journey through jump space.  This might<BR>
help explain the "7 days +/- 1 day" rule if the "up velocity" at start<BR>
of jump was constant - or if different jump numbers involved entering<BR>
different "jump spaces" each with different "gravity" and "entry/escape<BR>
velocity".  Gravity wells in real space warp the real space/jump space<BR>
interface in such a scheme so that the jump space side is *smaller*.  A<BR>
planet plus its gravity well becomes a very small target when "aiming"<BR>
your trajectory through jump space, so you are unlikely to exit jump in<BR>
a gravity well.  The dangers of entering jump space while in a gravity<BR>
well, OTOH, are pretty evident.  I realise this doesn't fit with Marc<BR>
Millers T4 pronouncement, but the effect is pretty much the same.<BR>
<BR>
Cheers,<BR>
<BR>
Andy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 18:22:36 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Wearable Lawyers (was Re: Deserts)<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:19:14 -0500 (EST)<BR>
>From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
>Subject: Re: Wearable Lawyers (was Re: Deserts)<BR>
<BR>
>I just realized I'd need to replace at least one OTU megacorp with A. T.<BR>
>Love, of course.<BR>
><BR>
>Always thinking --<BR>
><BR>
>Kenji<BR>
<BR>
I'm sure I'm missing something but I keep imagining Courtney the Hun<BR>
<BR>
(Or does A. T. stand for something else?)<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Old version - Build a better mousetrap and<BR>
the world will beat a path to your door.<BR>
New version - Build a better mousetrap and<BR>
some @$*% will build a better mouse.<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
PS Which Megacorp Gets the hook?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:30:30 -0600<BR>
From: Eris reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Mantras<BR>
<BR>
"Hughes, Michael" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> OB Traveller; Would Belters or have something similar?<BR>
> <BR>
> "If it's stony, extract it"<BR>
> "If it's ice, melt it"<BR>
> "If it's carbon, curse it"<BR>
<BR>
Hum, I would think the carbon compounds would be very valuable in a<BR>
belter civilization. <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:42:35 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Just testing...<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Steve's reply to Doug:<BR>
>> >...to see if this screws anyone's browser up....<BR>
>><BR>
>>Not this time!  Thou hast slain the Attachment Beast!<BR>
><BR>
>I get experience points for that right?  Oh hell, wrong game....<BR>
<BR>
"Oh frabjous day! Calloo callay!<BR>
I chortled (fortunately avoiding my keyboard - and Doug's list) in my joy..."<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
- - Hyphen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 18:53:23 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1500<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:05:11 PST<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I'm told that due to the influence of th government contractor types<BR>
>and NASA the regulations aren't real friendly to "small start up"<BR>
>companies.<BR>
<BR>
But if some company decided that space was a worthwhile<BR>
investment those rules would change. All it would take is a few well<BR>
chosen "campaign contributions" and congress would fall over itself<BR>
backwards to change those regulations.<BR>
<BR>
(gosub Monty Python<BR>
  Are they foaming at the mouth to fall over backwards or<BR>
  falling over backwards to foam at the mouth?<BR>
  return)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>> The reasons "private enterprise" hasn't gotten into the space game<BR>
>> on a free lance basis is that nobody can figure out how to do it<BR>
>> less expensively than the "ineficient government bueraucracy."<BR>
><BR>
>Well, I hear that part of the reason for that is that you get required<BR>
>to produce tons of paperwork to satisfy government types that you<BR>
>aren't violating their rules.<BR>
<BR>
I worked for a Textbook store that serves the local comunity college.<BR>
one of the courses taught at that institution is ENG 100 - Technical<BR>
Writing. Any largish corporation will be able to swamp "Los Federales"<BR>
with more than enough paperwork to convince anybody willing to be<BR>
convinced. (My impression of NASA funcionaries - they want to be<BR>
convinced.)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>- --<BR>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 15:54:30 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: chicks with guns, and 3I porno<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>You also have to remember that Jefferson and others <BR>
>are on record as having stated (essentially) that if <BR>
>the government got out of hand, the people were <BR>
>*supposed* to overthrow it by force of arms!<BR>
<BR>
That is, after all, exactly what happened in the<BR>
American Revolution.  The people overthrew the British<BR>
colonial government.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:49:46 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Marines & Cutlasses<BR>
<BR>
    I apologise if this has been raised before but why do Marines get the<BR>
Cutlass? They never used them historically, Marines started out using<BR>
Muskets and Bayonets and even the officers used a different sword. Enlisted<BR>
Naval personnel were the main users of the Cutlass, they also used Boarding<BR>
Axes and Boarding Pikes as well all though these don't seem to be an option.<BR>
    Jim L.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:01:15 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: They're coming! (again)<BR>
<BR>
A contemporary War of the Worlds game would be very<BR>
appropriate, what with the recent losses of Mars<BR>
probes, the "meteorite" falls in Australia, the<BR>
large-scale melting of the Antarctic ice-cap ...<BR>
should you use GURPS rules or Call of Cthulhu?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 11:01:28 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Many threads, pick from: RASN, Imp control, tech advances, on -topic violence thread<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Re: The Royal Australian Space Navy<BR>
<BR>
Kyle said:<BR>
>I wonder if the HMASS Melbourne would be better<BR>
>piloted than the HMAS Melbourne was (which Aussie<BR>
>ship, for ten points, sank three ships in its career,<BR>
>two Aussie and one USA?)<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps you should point out that this was all in peacetime...<BR>
<BR>
Funny that the Melbourne was going to be Riker's command, then we see it shot up<BR>
by the Borg...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Re: Imperial control over member states (was: US Constitution [OT])<BR>
<BR>
Leonard said:<BR>
>OBTrav: Does the Imperial government ever run into this sort of<BR>
>problem. Cases where no matter *how* you interpret the law, large<BR>
>population segments on a planet will be upset to the point of riot or<BR>
>revolt?<BR>
<BR>
Why do you think the Imperium has a "hands-off" approach to planetary<BR>
governments? They don't want to be part of this sort of mess any more than the<BR>
US Supreme Court seems to want to.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
DaveShayne said:<BR>
>Anybody who believes that private companies are automatically<BR>
>efficient hasn't been reading their Dilbert cartoons. (yes they are just<BR>
>comics but they are only funny because they are so true.)<BR>
<BR>
Please God someone tell that to our Government!!<BR>
<BR>
(oh, I'm probably not supposed to say that - oh that's right, it's OK, I'm using<BR>
the offical disclaimer...)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Re: bringing violence thread back on traveller point<BR>
<BR>
Gary wrote:<BR>
>[remind me sometime to explain how I used the Ford/Nazi interaction, along<BR>
<BR>
(May I jump in first?)<BR>
<BR>
"Consider this to be a reminder".<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:13:13 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: the light hand of the Imperium (was Re: US Constitution [OT])<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>OBTrav: Does the Imperial government ever run into <BR>
>this sort of problem. Cases where no matter *how* you<BR>
<BR>
>interpret the law, large population segments on a <BR>
>planet will be upset to the point of riot or revolt? <BR>
<BR>
This doesn't happen to the Imperial government,<BR>
because it governs so little and makes almost no laws<BR>
that deal directly with people's lives.  The notable<BR>
exceptions would be the Psionics Suppressions and the<BR>
decree against slavery, and these may have led to to<BR>
lose-lose situations in their time.  By the 1100s,<BR>
these are non-issues.<BR>
<BR>
Member states can have lots of problems of this<BR>
nature, of course.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 01:51:36 -0500<BR>
From: "Charlie" <milllk@mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Hack, Cough, Die and Imp Intelligence.<BR>
<BR>
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Hi Folks<BR>
 I am working up a new campaign scenario and I would like some opinions. =<BR>
At TL13/14 could you brew up a chemical toxin that would trigger only if =<BR>
an individual had an elevated level of some trace mineral in their body. =<BR>
A example would be a group using lead in their water supply =<BR>
infrastructure or another group exposed to some industrial byproduct =<BR>
unique to a particular type of industry.=20<BR>
Thanks<BR>
Charlie Moore<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
<DIV>Hi Folks</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;I am working up a new campaign =<BR>
scenario and I=20<BR>
would like some opinions. At TL13/14 could you brew up a chemical toxin =<BR>
that=20<BR>
would trigger only if an individual had an elevated level of some trace =<BR>
mineral=20<BR>
in their body. A example would be a group using lead in their water =<BR>
supply=20<BR>
infrastructure or another group exposed to some industrial byproduct =<BR>
unique to a=20<BR>
particular type of industry. </DIV><BR>
<DIV>Thanks</DIV><BR>
<DIV>Charlie Moore</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01BF469E.EC854FC0--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:19:22 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Gun Control<BR>
<BR>
>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
<BR>
>Can we please avoid the gun control topic?  There are<BR>
>extremely divided views on the subject here on the <BR>
>TML, as out there in the real world. Can't we all<BR>
> just get along?  :)<BR>
<BR>
I thought we were getting along famously.  No one has<BR>
even called anyone else "wrong" let alone a rude name.<BR>
 To the extent that the subject is straying from<BR>
Traveller (lately by becoming an exegisis of United<BR>
States foundational texts), however, I support taking<BR>
the discussion off-list.  To the extent that we're<BR>
talking about Traveller issues, I don't object to<BR>
analogizing from history.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:25:39 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Paintball is not a real gun, much less a light crew served weapon<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:10:36 -0500 (EST), SD Mooney<BR>
<dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>At 21:16 -0500 13/12/99, "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> >But it just occured to me that some PC out the *has* to be carrying a<BR>
>> >paintball gun with "napalm" ammo. Though I admit it'd be more likely in<BR>
>> >a White Wolf type game.<BR>
<BR>
>>Holy water. To fight Vampires you load your paintballs with Holy Water.<BR>
<BR>
>Nah, buy a crew served Super Squirter.<BR>
<BR>
I've seen these!  The police often use them to break up riots!<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:22:40 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Velocity/Vector<BR>
<BR>
>From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
<BR>
>Just to throw my two cents in here I use a system <BR>
>where emergence from jump causes one's vector <BR>
>direction to be randomized.  <BR>
<BR>
This might be contradicted by Amber Zone: A Dagger at<BR>
Efate, but I'm not sure.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:26:15 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hack, Cough, Die and Imp Intelligence.<BR>
<BR>
Charlie writes:<BR>
> Hi Folks<BR>
>  I am working up a new campaign scenario and I would like some opinions. At<BR>
>  TL13/14 could you brew up a chemical toxin that would trigger only if an individual had an elevated level of some trace mineral in their body. A example would be a group using lead in their water supply infrastructure or another group exposed to some industrial byproduct unique to a particular type of industry.  <BR>
<BR>
Maybe.  It depends what the trace mineral is.  In general I'd consider it unlikely, however.  A biological agent which triggers on some trace material is probably easier.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:32:40 -0500<BR>
From: jes8 <jes8@uakron.edu><BR>
Subject: [none]<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 00:31:02 +0000<BR>
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: independent Terran invention of jump drive? sure<BR>
<BR>
At 02:46 PM 12/2/99 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
><snip><BR>
>Of course, the true story is that a Vilani ship<BR>
>crashed near Roswell, New Mexico in 1947, and the<BR>
>United States government spent a long time figuring<BR>
>out how it worked.  After the United States took over<BR>
>the United Nations through domination of the World<BR>
>Trade Organization, it started a series of top-secret<BR>
>probes into nearby space to find the Vilani and learn<BR>
>their weaknesses.  Once it was sure that the Vilani<BR>
>could be conquered, it allowed j-drive to be invented<BR>
>by "miners in the asteroids", who were actually a<BR>
>black ops team.  Then it was short road to war and<BR>
>conquest of the Ziru Sirka.  The stars had been made<BR>
>safe for Astroburger, Inc.!<BR>
><BR>
>Of course, the true true story is that some or all of<BR>
>the preceding two stories is a Hiver manipulation<BR>
>whose true purpose and intent will not be revealed for<BR>
>some time.<BR>
><BR>
>Of course, the really true story is that the Hivers<BR>
>are creations of Grandfather.<BR>
><BR>
>Of course, the underlying actual truth is that<BR>
>Grandfather is a Hiver manipulation.<BR>
><BR>
>--Glenn<BR>
>__________________________________________________<BR>
>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
>Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
>Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
New Heresy:<BR>
<BR>
Grandfather and the Hivers are old enemies.<BR>
<BR>
The war wasn't between Grandfather and his children, it was between<BR>
Grandfather and the Hivers. All of the Grandfather's children were<BR>
destroyed, Grandfather hid and the Hivers were blasted back into a pre<BR>
technological society.<BR>
<BR>
And the trip switch to start the war was the Hiver's attempt to manipulate<BR>
one of the most adaptable of Grandfathers slave worker races, the Humans.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:18:26 -0600<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
At 06:20 AM 12/15/99 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>On 12/15/1999 00:46, Bruce Macintosh wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Current tech is straining it a little; Daedalus had a<BR>
>> laser fusion drive; we can't even build a laser fusion setup<BR>
>> that gets out more energy when its on the ground filling<BR>
>> several entire buildings.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> And Daedalus was automated in spite of a hundred-year<BR>
>> mission duration; NASA can't even build something autonamous<BR>
>> that can manage to land on Mars...<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
The funny thing is though, twenty years ago NASA could do it. You<BR>
youngsters might want to look up the history of a little project called<BR>
Viking. <BR>
<BR>
My question is: Is NASA's recent history just a string of bad luck, the<BR>
fruits of our "modern, improved" education system, or little gray dudes<BR>
from Zeta Reticuli getting in some target practice before the big invasion?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
strive to overcome.<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:48:04 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Mailing Info<BR>
<BR>
    Does the XTML list still function? Could someone tell me the procedure<BR>
for joining that list as well? I'm a bit lost and I'm having troubles<BR>
getting onto the majordomo site.<BR>
    Jim L.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 01:53:39 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Full auto Pilgramage Pics...and DITZIE?!?!<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:48:46 -0800 (PST), Glenn Goffin<BR>
<gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>So you have a much more homogenous population spread<BR>
>>far more thinly.<BR>
><BR>
>But you do have to remember that the only people that<BR>
>the Finns traditionally dislike more than the Russians<BR>
>are the Swedes (and even among the Finns the<BR>
>Savolainen are said to think that they're superior to<BR>
>everyone else, while the Karelians are considered sort<BR>
>of like people who live in Appalachia).  Still, those<BR>
>frosty northern temperaments seem to lead to a lot<BR>
>more snide jokes than drive-by shootings.  (My<BR>
>relatives couldn't tell me enough Swedish jokes the<BR>
>last time I was there.)<BR>
><BR>
Did you hear about the Finnish man who loved his wife SO MUCH he<BR>
almost told her?<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
<BR>
"Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy, and the<BR>
 lash."                              - Winston Churchill<BR>
<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
GCS V 3.12 d- s:+: a- C+++ UH++$ P-- L+ E-- W++ N++ o-- K- w++++(---)$ !O M-- V-<BR>
PS-- PE++ Y+ PGP t+ 5++ X+ R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D++ G e+ h--- r+++ y+++<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:49:01 -0600<BR>
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net><BR>
Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I think NASA's problem is that their budget<BR>
is scrutinized so severely.<BR>
If Congress would give them the cash and back off, I think NASA could and<BR>
would<BR>
perform. Right now they are very safety concious and gun shy due to<BR>
failures.<BR>
<BR>
Remember the little mars rover thingy? That worked. Most of NASA's stuff<BR>
works, its just<BR>
big failures that make the news.<BR>
<BR>
On a strange note, anyone besides me ever notice that GDW made Zeta2<BR>
Reticuli the secret homeworld of one alien race in 2300 AD?<BR>
<BR>
The very same star that fanatics claim is the home to the Greys?<BR>
<BR>
TV<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1501<BR>
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